gordonzola: (terroir)
[personal profile] gordonzola
Terroir has always been my least favorite cheese term. It means “sense of place” and when discussing food it is used to highlight the geographical uniqueness of certain tastes. It implies isolation and specificity i.e. that a cheese has a particular taste because the cows/goats/sheep are eating certain forage that is only available in that area. To me, it also implies history. That a food developed, in whatever way, independent of influences from outside the area of origin.

So far, so good. In France, its use would be perfectly acceptable. I’ve written about it here before but let me outline my issues again with using it for US cheeses.

1.It’s usually use pretentiously in this country, as if to show, “I speak French. Therefore I know more than you.”

2. My first exposure to it was at an American Cheese Society Conference where it was the theme. Beyond the mis-marketing of using a French word to promote the American hand made cheese, there was the problem that it was being used for newly developed cheese. Can something have terroir if you just invented it?

3. Unless a cheese is “farmstead”( made on the actual farm using only milk from ones own mammals) you, the consumer, may not know exactly where the milk comes from. Therefore discussing “terroir” may show you to be pretentious and wrong

Take, for example this announcement of Cypress Grove winning the NASFT “Outstanding Product Line” award:

not terroir

Now, I love Cypress Grove cheese. It is some of the best in the country. They deserve awards, lots of them. Cypress Grove is not responsible for this announcement ad in any way, (this is from a trade magazine which is responsible for this error). But using a photograph of Midnight Moon and using it as an example of cheese “reflecting the terroir of the area”* is flat out wrong. Midnight Moon is a fine goat gouda, but it’s made in Holland, something that is stated on every box.** I think whoever anonymously wrote that blurb was just throwing some fancy food words out there unthinkingly, but that’s the point I’m making.

Beyond that, many cheesemakers supplement their milk supplies from outside their immediate area anyway, especially the goat cheese makers. That doesn’t take away from the quality of the products. It just means whatever you are tasting, it sure isn’t terroir.



*isn’t “terroir of the area” a redundancy anyway? It shows the sense of place of the place…?

**Though certainly not at every point of purchase, but that’s another entry.

Date: 2008-05-15 03:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bing-crosby.livejournal.com
you are awesome. I especially like when I can argue against something snotty and insider-y by more insider info (e.g. point 3).

When I worked in sustainable food stuff almost a decade ago, people would talk about "terroir" as a possible alternate descriptor to organic once the big companies started adopting that label. I do like the idea it captures, but ultimately a frenchy name taken from the wine industry isn't going to work as anything other than a status marker (or status combined with quality, but those are similar in marketing-speak I think). I think just good ol "local" or "small farm" are good descriptors-- in veggies "heirloom" was a good one, but now has come to mean something different than it originally did. How long till you see a national brand use terroir?

Date: 2008-05-15 04:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gordonzola.livejournal.com
Taste the terroir of the new Jack in the Box artisan Ciabatta Bread!

Spot on

Date: 2008-05-15 03:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarahshevett.livejournal.com
Now, I love Mary. And I love Cypress Grove. I actually hate to say anything negative about her and the company. She has been very good to me.
But.
Even the locally produced cheeses aren't completely produced with local goats on locally produced feed. Every dairy here imports hay and grain.
But maybe I know too much, and all companies are like this, it just makes me sad about these guys. I know they know better.

Another word like "organic" and "green" which really means nothing.

And "terroir" is just an ugly word. I can hardly say it.

Re: Spot on

Date: 2008-05-15 03:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gordonzola.livejournal.com
yes, I just bolded where I said that above and switched out "Cypress Grove" for the pronoun to make it more clear. They are more upfront about these issues than most people in the business so I'd hate this to be seen as an attack on them.

Re: Spot on

Date: 2008-05-15 04:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarahshevett.livejournal.com
And under this description
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003636.html
all the locally produced cheeses do fit the term...

Re: Spot on

Date: 2008-05-15 03:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gordonzola.livejournal.com
Good point on the feed.

For sheep and goat cheeses at this point, if it isn't a "farmstead" operation, it's more than likely that some percentage of milk (or frozen curd) is coming from Canada, Wisconsin or even Australia. Even "farmstead" doesn't tell you how the animals are kept or what they eat of course, just that they are on site.

Date: 2008-05-15 03:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] und1sk0.livejournal.com
I think the term can be annoying, especially by the smart-asses that spout terms like affinage and mise en place[*], but I think the concept is important so I support the idea of terrior memetically: to wit, it is important that one source ones food, so to focus on a food's regional character and season develops a more sustainable approach to eating.

Big words from someone who ate one of those McDonald's Southern-style chicken sandwiches for late-lunch yesterday (long work day, not many food choices).

Also, "terroir of the place" is like saying ATM machine (Automatic Teller Machine machine?). Cypress Grove Chevre should fire their marketing people, at least the copy editor. The graphics I dig.

[*] Guilty as charged.
Edited Date: 2008-05-15 03:42 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-05-15 03:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gordonzola.livejournal.com
let me reiterate This didn't come from Cyrpress Grove. This is from a trade magazine giving them an award. Cypress does not try to pretend their "Creamline" cheeses are local. They are upfront about that.

and I agree the concept is important, absolutely! But the amount of food with those qualities is much smaller than the amount that try to capitalize on those concepts.

Date: 2008-05-15 04:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] und1sk0.livejournal.com
the main problem is one of "dilution" as in "trade mark dilution", one of the 'evils' my lawyer step-mother battles in her job as general counsel for a large food manufacturer who shall remain nameless.

the concept is this: the more a term or trade mark is used inappropriately, the lower its intrinsic value becomes. of course, i do not value trade marks or copyrights very much at all, a bone of some contention, albeit amicable, between me and the step-mom (also, i think it is hilarious when they go out in their "butter-brothers" tee-shirts).

at the same time, i'm arguing that there is a critical mass at which a term, although misused, effectively reaches a wider audience (good dilution). for instance, if my mother, who generally is not savvy about the loftier concepts of haute cusine, were to ask me what terroir meant upon encountering the term, then the meme is a success.

in other words, i'll take a schlocky (and hopefully short-lived) marketing fad over general ignorance any day. sure, joe blow is not going to have a deeper understanding of what it means because joe blow doesn't read MFK Fischer or watch Jacques Pepin on PBS, or even watch PBS, ever.

on the down side, when you make a particular regional product a commodity, you run the risk of a "ravenswoodification" of the product, to coin a term. the item becomes sought after outside of its target region, attempts to broaden the reach of the product are made and the quality of the product, not to mention its carbon footprint, suffer.

so, it comes down to managing the meme, which is rather like herding cats. steering the conversation about terroir is a chance to lead the consumer in the right direction, and you are on the front lines.

Date: 2008-05-15 04:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gordonzola.livejournal.com

You raise a lot of good points there but when, for example, "artisan" is used by Jack in the Box, if that is people's first exposure, how could the concept be understood? I've been at conferences where people are all, "I guess we can't use that word/concept any more..."

It may be a failing strategy, but I would like our trade organization to define and certify terms. Grass-fed is another biggie. It's federally regulated for meat but not, as yet for dairy.

But I think you're are right about the exposure though. It does increase the awareness that the issues are even out there.

Date: 2008-05-15 04:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] und1sk0.livejournal.com
exactly.. its a way in to the conversation about "what is DOC/AOC", etc, when you explain that as a marketing term, its meaning is virtually nothing. (esp in the context of "terroir of the place", barf!).

you've also touched on an important although indirectly related topic, especially in this election year: that people often do not put enough thought into interpreting what words mean, and what the speaker intends for a word or phrase to mean, and why.

consider the source, indeed.

Date: 2008-05-15 04:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarahshevett.livejournal.com
Woodstock killed the hippies

Date: 2008-05-15 04:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foodpoisoningsf.livejournal.com
Mise en place is a perfectly good term used for decades in restaurant kitchens. Although most of us shorten it to mise. There's no reason not use the concept at home except that you're probably not going to be putting out forty halibut specials in one shift.

Date: 2008-05-15 04:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] und1sk0.livejournal.com
"meez" is the name of the home-grown mass-deployment system we use at work to enumerate, catalog, install and deploy hundreds of servers at once from virtually out of the box.

when someone goes wrong with it, the reply is "get your meez together, maricon!"

Date: 2008-05-15 05:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hotelsamurai.livejournal.com
Chef told me once that "mise en place is a state of mind".

Date: 2008-05-15 05:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foodpoisoningsf.livejournal.com
That too. Or at least they go hand-in-hand.

Date: 2008-05-15 03:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] slipkid.livejournal.com
Makes me think Catcher of the Rye and Of Mice and Men. A Lenny meets Holden voice. Nice combo.

Date: 2008-05-15 03:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] clear-all.livejournal.com
Today the terroirists have won.

Date: 2008-05-15 06:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-macnab.livejournal.com
GOD DAMN IT YOU BEAT ME TO IT.

Date: 2008-05-15 03:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foodpoisoningsf.livejournal.com
Terroir is this year's artisanal.

Date: 2008-05-15 04:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gordonzola.livejournal.com
just wanted to use this icon.

Date: 2008-05-15 04:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lovelikeyeast.livejournal.com
I just have to mention that in this rapidly gentrifying neighborhood of Portland (N/NE), an upscale restaurant called Terroir sat like a confusing blight up the street from a Popeyes. It just didn't fit into its natural surroundings. "Tewwa!" I always cried, in passing. It always looked like a giant Fuck You to me. As no one living in the immediate vicinity of the restaurant can afford to eat there.

I use past tense (even though the building and poorly-fonted sign still sit there), because the owner and chef Stu Stein apparently fucked up seriously last year, publically putting down his PR firm, and then getting caught pretty egregiously plagiarizing two different food writers, including Pac NW cheese zealot Tami Parr.

About a month after the shit hit the fan, the restaurant mysteriously closed. No doubt, it was likely having problems keeping afloat already. But you really can't sustain an upscale restaurant here without the foodies behind you.

Speaking of terroir.
Edited Date: 2008-05-15 04:55 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-05-15 05:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gordonzola.livejournal.com
Tami is great. I link to her from gordonzola.net and I made a feed for her cheese project blog:

http://syndicated.livejournal.com/pnwcheeseprjct/

I didn't know any of that stuff.

Date: 2008-05-16 04:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] magpiesf.livejournal.com
living in ne portland, i ride past that place all the time, and yeah. totally did not make sense. and the font! aiiiee! they completely overestimated the gentrification rate. far too many people at my income level doing the homebuying to support a place like that. nevermind that i dont think i ever couldve brought myself to eat there simply because of the name.

Date: 2008-05-16 06:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] snagvictim.livejournal.com
I was hoping someone would post the Portland Terroir story.

-Steve Lieber

Date: 2008-05-15 04:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kynn.livejournal.com
I fully support your war on terroir.

Date: 2008-05-15 05:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hotelsamurai.livejournal.com
I don't know about point 2... My understanding of terroir is that it refers to atributes of the place, not necessarily history. So the answer to the question, "can something have terroir if you just invented it?" would be yes.

Date: 2008-05-15 05:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gordonzola.livejournal.com
I agree it's arguable. But since places themselves have a history, how does something convey a sense of that history when it is brand new?

I believe that food has a cultural component. When there is no history of people consuming a certain food, no matter what it is, how can it truly convey that sense? People are part of nature and place and without them, I don't know if the food/wine can stand for terroir. The things we associate (rightly) with terroir grew up with localized communities in relative (to today) isolation.

I would argue that something like Franklin's Teleme, even though the company and milk supply have moved more than once, is more representative of terroir as a traditional Bay Area Italian-American food, than say, Cyrpess Grove (who, again, make some of the best cheese in the Country).

Date: 2008-05-15 05:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hotelsamurai.livejournal.com
"The things we associate... with terroir grew up with localized communities in relative... isolation."

You are probably right, but at this point I will defer to your greater knowledge of the subject: What things do we associate with terroir?

I know next to nothing about cheese. I have only encountered terroir as a wine term, and always thought it referred to physical, not cultural, attributes of a place: climate, soil, etc.

Date: 2008-05-15 07:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gordonzola.livejournal.com
WELL, i DON'T KNOW IF i REALLY HAVE "GREATER KNOWLEDGE" (argh sorry for the caps). I just don't know how to divorce food from culture. That seems contrary to the point, imo.

Date: 2008-05-15 10:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hotelsamurai.livejournal.com
*nodding thoughtfully*

Date: 2008-05-15 05:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] reveritas.livejournal.com
here i was totally thinking it was about terrorism the entire time.

grammar crimes

Date: 2008-05-15 06:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trixiefirecat.livejournal.com
i actually love the word terroir because it means so many things simultaneously [and i do speak french, so maybe i'll just go for being pretentious and call it a trifecta], but this use of it is not only awkward, yes the "terroir of that area" is kind of like they wanted to use the word really badly but then felt they needed to explain it. at least use it with command if you're going to at all!

Re: grammar crimes

Date: 2008-05-15 06:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hotelsamurai.livejournal.com
I read once in a book about manners: "to use a foreign phrase and then translate it for your listener is as much as to admit that the listener is an ignoramus".

And from Strunk & White (I think): If you don't know how to pronounce a word, SAY IT LOUD! Do not compound the sin of error with that of timidity.

Re: grammar crimes

Date: 2008-05-15 07:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trixiefirecat.livejournal.com
i would add, too, that terroir is as good as an english word since we have no english equivalent and use it in context regularly.

Date: 2008-05-15 07:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] twotoedsloth.livejournal.com
Then there are the terrier cheeses that are made from locally produced dog milk.

Date: 2008-05-15 10:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elevenoclock.livejournal.com
I ain't no expert but to me it means the type of ground/earth and the vegetation that might lend flavor in an area. It seems completely misplaced in the case of that cheese. Also it does kind of imply a long-term relationship with one very particular area.

Date: 2008-05-16 04:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] magpiesf.livejournal.com
i will admit to being totally 100% pro-concept-of-terroir, but 100% anti-overuse-of-the-word-for-the-sake-of-wankage. its really gotten quite ridiculous lately.

“terroir of the area”!!! argh. oooh! you speak french! argh.

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