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gordonzolaAfter 15 years of cheese selling (my anniversary was May 18!), it’s not like I think I’ve seen it all, but I feel like I have a general handle on the questions I will get. Last weekend however, one threw me for a loop.
A guy walks up to me and says, “What’s your margin on cheese?”
“Are you asking as a customer or as a food professional?” I respond. Something about his manner is odd, not the least of which is that there’s no lead up to this question at all and he asks as if it were just as normal to ask this as “where’s the brie?” I ask this question mostly because I want to know if he understands the difference between margin and mark-up,* and also because I want to try and figure out where he’s coming from.
“Food professional.”
“I’ll answer your question, but I find it strange – if you are in the food business – that you can’t tell by looking at the prices. There are not a lot of secrets in the food world. We pretty much all know what each other pay for things. Where do you work?”
“I work at a company that sells products online.”
“Ok, so you want me to tell you how we do our pricing but you won’t tell me where you work or why you are asking. I mean, I’m standing here at my workplace so you know where I’m coming from but you won’t give me any information about yourself and you expect me to tell you what are generally considered trade secrets. Doesn’t that strike you as a little odd?”
“I didn’t mean it that way. I work on the computer systems.”
“Ok, for what company?”
“…” Clearly this is a secret for some reason.
“Ok, here’s the deal, our cheese margins are between 35-50% which is low for the industry. What our margin is depends on how much labor goes into a cheese. Does that answer your question?”
“(Looking at a two-year aged gouda) I just find it strange that you can sell cheese for $15/lb. Why don’t people just buy it at Costco?”**
It’s certainly not limited to selling cheese, but this is how people get themselves into trouble. If he had identified himself as a customer I would have been much friendlier, answering the question after I generally explained the issues behind cheese pricing: high labor to sales ratio, higher cost of refrigeration that regular grocery, need to cover shrink, etc. as well as the fact that pricing also reflects that people can ask questions to workers who get paid a living wage (with benefits) and therefore tend to have more knowledge and experience than people at other stores.
By puffing himself up, he unknowingly violated the unwritten rule of the food trade which is that the first thing you do when asking questions to someone else in the food trade is identify yourself. He thereby put himself in the category of people like the sales rep who once called me up pretending to be a customer asking me about Cheese X*** and saying that we really needed to carry it and that he and all his friends would buy it etc. Liars and time-wasters are the most reviled people in the business. That doesn’t seem like an unusual concept.
*Margin is the percent you make after subtracting the wholesale price of a product. It is related to – but different from – the mark up. For example, if we pay $1 for something and our mark up is 50% we charge $1.50. Since .50 is the amount we net, 33% is the margin because .50 is 33% of $1.50.
**It’s not that this is not a valid question. It’s simply that a cheese professional would know the answer to this. This is food retail 101.
**Since they dealt with him quickly and appropriately, I will not ID the company.
A guy walks up to me and says, “What’s your margin on cheese?”
“Are you asking as a customer or as a food professional?” I respond. Something about his manner is odd, not the least of which is that there’s no lead up to this question at all and he asks as if it were just as normal to ask this as “where’s the brie?” I ask this question mostly because I want to know if he understands the difference between margin and mark-up,* and also because I want to try and figure out where he’s coming from.
“Food professional.”
“I’ll answer your question, but I find it strange – if you are in the food business – that you can’t tell by looking at the prices. There are not a lot of secrets in the food world. We pretty much all know what each other pay for things. Where do you work?”
“I work at a company that sells products online.”
“Ok, so you want me to tell you how we do our pricing but you won’t tell me where you work or why you are asking. I mean, I’m standing here at my workplace so you know where I’m coming from but you won’t give me any information about yourself and you expect me to tell you what are generally considered trade secrets. Doesn’t that strike you as a little odd?”
“I didn’t mean it that way. I work on the computer systems.”
“Ok, for what company?”
“…” Clearly this is a secret for some reason.
“Ok, here’s the deal, our cheese margins are between 35-50% which is low for the industry. What our margin is depends on how much labor goes into a cheese. Does that answer your question?”
“(Looking at a two-year aged gouda) I just find it strange that you can sell cheese for $15/lb. Why don’t people just buy it at Costco?”**
It’s certainly not limited to selling cheese, but this is how people get themselves into trouble. If he had identified himself as a customer I would have been much friendlier, answering the question after I generally explained the issues behind cheese pricing: high labor to sales ratio, higher cost of refrigeration that regular grocery, need to cover shrink, etc. as well as the fact that pricing also reflects that people can ask questions to workers who get paid a living wage (with benefits) and therefore tend to have more knowledge and experience than people at other stores.
By puffing himself up, he unknowingly violated the unwritten rule of the food trade which is that the first thing you do when asking questions to someone else in the food trade is identify yourself. He thereby put himself in the category of people like the sales rep who once called me up pretending to be a customer asking me about Cheese X*** and saying that we really needed to carry it and that he and all his friends would buy it etc. Liars and time-wasters are the most reviled people in the business. That doesn’t seem like an unusual concept.
*Margin is the percent you make after subtracting the wholesale price of a product. It is related to – but different from – the mark up. For example, if we pay $1 for something and our mark up is 50% we charge $1.50. Since .50 is the amount we net, 33% is the margin because .50 is 33% of $1.50.
**It’s not that this is not a valid question. It’s simply that a cheese professional would know the answer to this. This is food retail 101.
**Since they dealt with him quickly and appropriately, I will not ID the company.
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no subject
Date: 2009-05-28 04:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-28 04:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-28 04:36 pm (UTC)amen, sir.
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Date: 2009-05-28 05:01 pm (UTC)If you are too stupid to understand why some cheese cost more than others you do not deserve delicious, awesome, fine quality cheese.
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Date: 2009-05-28 05:14 pm (UTC)see, it's not even that, because it's a legitimate question if someone has never thought about those issues or doesn't understand the differences between cheeses. It's just not a legitimate question from a food professional who would understand how mass buying and living wage issues will affect pricing.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-28 05:23 pm (UTC)It was his attitude and hostility and evasiveness which made me angry enough to call him stupid.
Genuinely curious and interested people who go into cheese shops to ask questions like this are not stupid, they are just uneducated about cheese.
Tangentially related
Date: 2009-05-28 05:37 pm (UTC)Cheese-Mongers in Toronto!
no subject
Date: 2009-05-28 06:10 pm (UTC)This reminds me of when I had a very temp job working for an asshole furniture designer who sent me all over Manhattan to do recon at hotels--sans business cards from him, with instructions to question staff without providing info. I was like yeah, this plan is gonna go over really well. Different industry, but people in general don't like being questioned about the particulars of their work place by a secretive figure, I'd imagine. Bad form!
no subject
Date: 2009-05-28 07:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-29 07:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-29 01:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-28 07:33 pm (UTC)In life, Gordon, in life!
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Date: 2009-05-28 09:55 pm (UTC)I think you are being too kind about his question. To me, this is at the level of, "Why isn't there only one store in the world? Why isn't there only one type of every product, like in 'Repo Man'? I love that movie."
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Date: 2009-05-28 11:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-29 03:08 am (UTC)For this guy it was more general though: "Aged Gouda" "Sharp Cheddar" "Manchego". We carry different brands but that didn't matter to him.
no subject
Date: 2009-05-28 11:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-29 01:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-29 03:13 am (UTC)I would argue that there is also sometimes a care and handling issue as well. And sometimes cheese may look the same but isn't. P'tit Basque, for example, is often the waxed version at the big box stores. This means that while it's very hard to hurt the cheese, it also doesn't aged since it was sealed at the factory. The P'tit Basque we (and many other stores) demand is the natural rind one which is a little stronger and more interesting.
But your point is valid and I'm glad you brought it up.
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Date: 2009-05-29 03:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-29 01:49 am (UTC)Is shrink a notably larger problem in the cheese department?
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Date: 2009-05-29 03:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-29 03:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-29 03:52 am (UTC)ok, so now i want to know what you did to have him "dealt with" :)
oh, and in other news, ill be down in your neck of the woods in mid-august! im looking forward to coming by and staring at cheese in front of the old gang.
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Date: 2009-05-29 01:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-29 01:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-05-29 05:21 am (UTC)whenever i approach people who i know are scoping us out, they're very defensive and avoidant. they brush off my offers of assistance, and i say "well if you have *any* questions, feel free to ask and i'll be more than happy to help" with a broad smile and knowing wink. to which they respond by nodding, akwardly smiling back, and talking quietly whilst slowly backing away until they think i'm out of ear's range. then they huddle back together and chat over their notepads occasionally making louder comments for the sake of appearing like they are shopping... or sometimes out of spite "oh, look! i saw this at xyz for a much better price" pfft...
and regardless of who they work for, they're all the same. unless they aren't from Utah. lol. when people i recognize as visiting sales reps for suppliers that other people in town deal with, they're always chatty and straightforward.
i was talking to the boss about this phenomenon, and he shook his head and affirmed that it's a trait that many folks in the food business here share. i just think it's funny. as you say, there aren't that many secrets... yet they act all cloak and dagger, but in such an obvious way that it just makes you want to laugh and sigh.
btw, our margins are pretty much the same range ;)
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Date: 2009-06-01 03:25 pm (UTC)"I asked a simple question and the dude jumped down my throat like I was asking for trade secrets! Chill out hippies!"
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Date: 2009-06-08 04:43 pm (UTC)http://www.daisyowl.com/comic/2009-05-08
no subject
Date: 2009-06-08 04:45 pm (UTC)